Curse

Gabs88 · Apr 24, 2012, 11:38 AM // 11:38

I'd just like to divert a little bit of attention to a backline concept I've been playing around with lately.

Spell Breaker has been marked with a bug notice for years but it is simply not true, heroes will still heal you and cast spells as usual when spell breaker is up.

It is very well suited for any melee class. And extremely useful when balling up any kind of spell casting foe. Whether you are doing Frostmaws, Bogroots or the Fire Forest in Sacnoth valley this backline will perform very well. It obviously won't be winning any speed competitions versus more damage oriented backlines but it will on average perform on par with them. And in normal play it might allow you to run some gates, skip some mobs, easymode a boss or similar.

Wielder Of Magic · Apr 24, 2012, 11:43 AM // 11:43

It has the mandatory melee buffs, so I can see that part work.
Is spellbreaker enough of a "prot" that you don't have to rush balling in HM?

Gabs88 · Apr 24, 2012, 11:52 AM // 11:52

That depends more on your character then anything else really. A WoTA sin doesn't compare with an escape ranger (75% block) or a 116 AL Axe warrior in that regard.

But it allows you to ball them quicker since you don't get nuked / snared to death while doing it. Wand using foes will follow easier and melee-casters such as Roaring Ethers (they wear melee weapons) will come in and melee you at once. It's basically the same as the difference between balling with shadowform or not.

Lethal Primate · Apr 24, 2012, 04:29 PM // 16:29

I realy like this idea, been playing arround with perma SB for my sin. I found out however that prot spirit + spirit bond + SoA makes you enough of a tank . In that way the protection hero (ER prot sppammer) is also usefull for the rest of the team, instead of having a skill which only benefits 1 group member. SB was much better when it made spells fail, but not that it doesn't drain the mob of energy I think it's out done by prot spamming.

bhavv · Apr 24, 2012, 08:50 PM // 20:50

Edit - Sorry, I didnt realize you were running a melee class so the smiter can come in very handy.

This is a very good backline too revolving around UA mimicry + HB, and a paragon for splinter weapon, you could maybe try this out with a RoJ smiter on top with your melee buffs.

Prot spirit goes on one of your casters, and a second copy of fall back on another

I wouldnt rely on spellbreaker, pre casting prot spirit + spirit bond on yourself from a prot hero (Ne/Mo MM prot hero works best) gives you enough damage reuction to rush and agro everything with your heroes flagged behind. The UA + Healing Burst monk will keep your red bar full and you manually keep spirit bond refreshed while tanking the agro.

So with your smiter and optional protter MM, it could look something like this:

Gabs88 · Apr 25, 2012, 09:29 AM // 09:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhavv

*snip*

those bars have no relevance to this thread because:
1. this thread is primarily about incorporating spell breaker in your play style.
2. they are not adapted to a ball and spike approach.
3. not adapted to a melee player.
4. a single minion is easily enough to spread splinter weapon. but more importaintly, when playing a melee player I don't want a para to get it over me.

and as a sidenote, the bars are packed with flaws and questionable choices. (Spear of light, channeling, blood of the master on a minion bomber, entire para bar)

so if you wanna discuss the use of a paragon, make your own thread.

Lanier · Apr 25, 2012, 09:39 PM // 21:39

That is an interesting idea - using Spell Breaker on the smiter. I'll have to give it a try.

On your heal bar, HB > UA... especially on a hero and when using healing seed.

Premium Unleaded · Apr 25, 2012, 11:05 PM // 23:05

Surely the other two bars are irrelevent and it's basically all about the SB smiter?

SingYai · Apr 26, 2012, 01:23 AM // 01:23

I dont think heroes cast SB at all unless micro...correct me if im wrong.....just not a fan of microing skills much

Gabs88 · Apr 26, 2012, 08:51 AM // 08:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by SingYai

I dont think heroes cast SB at all unless micro...correct me if im wrong.....just not a fan of microing skills much

If you don't intend to micro you obviously shouldn't be bringing SB. And regardless of whether or not heroes use it by themselves they would not use it out of combat, and in that case I don't really see any benefit to using it at all. Since it should only be used before pulling mobs.

That said, this is not what I'd call microing skills "much". It is a waste of time and energy to use it on every single pull. Personally I hold ctrl to check what mobs im facing and I got a good grasp on which ones I should be using it against and which ones I should not. If I see a illusion mesmer or a frost elementalist I may use it, if I see a Air ele I may just go ahead without. For instance in Sacnoth Valley I may choose not to use it vs a single group in a vanquish, until I get to the fire forest. Where it allows me to safely make big mob pulls and easily ball them up.

Sometimes you end up using it on cooldown, other times you may end up only using it vs a boss or two. The point beeing that you have the oppurtunity to use it where you see fit and bring it on a character that looses only about ~10-15% of its damage (or ~1,5-2% of team total damage) by bringing it for you.

Quote:

Surely the other two bars are irrelevent and it's basically all about the SB smiter?

Yes, but I wanted to put it in to context. Many people choose to bring ER or ST prots primarily so that they can avoid getting nuked to death during hard pulls here you replace those entire characters by bringing SB instead to stop spell damage and give you the time and survivability to make good pulls.

----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lanier

On your heal bar, HB > UA... especially on a hero and when using healing seed.

And in that case UA > HB > Healing Burst / WoH.

Personally I didn't like UA myself for a long time, obviously bringing a N/Rt would be better right? Then you can get weakness, slower attack speed and damage with the same character and still heal for more or less the same amount!

But once you actually start looking at the numbers, you usually find that the extra damage and utility is completely insignificant. The damage loss from loosing a N/Rt + RoJ on smiting monk in favor of healing monk and a non damage elite (UA / SB / ER) on smite only amounts to 3-7% (3-5 is more realistic) loss in the teams total damage depending on playstyle and skill choices. Which is made up for by increased efficiency in other fields (fast ress, increased hex / condition removal and so on).

And realistically, picking HB, WoH or Healing burst over UA does in most cases not add enough healing power to keep a target alive in the cases where it would die when you brought UA. In other words in the time it would take you to get 10 deaths with an UA monk in team, you would likely have 8 or 9 with a WoH / HB / HealBurst monk in team.

Often it is more benefitial to let a hero die then waste effort on healing him too. (big hex + condition stacks for instance)

loopysnoopy · Apr 26, 2012, 10:40 AM // 10:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gabs88

And in that case UA > HB > Healing Burst / WoH.

But once you actually start looking at the numbers, you usually find that the extra damage and utility is completely insignificant. The damage loss from loosing a N/Rt + RoJ on smiting monk in favor of healing monk and a non damage elite (UA / SB / ER) on smite only amounts to 3-7% (3-5 is more realistic) loss in the teams total damage depending on playstyle and skill choices. Which is made up for by increased efficiency in other fields (fast ress, increased hex / condition removal and so on).

And realistically, picking HB, WoH or Healing burst over UA does in most cases not add enough healing power to keep a target alive in the cases where it would die when you brought UA. In other words in the time it would take you to get 10 deaths with an UA monk in team, you would likely have 8 or 9 with a WoH / HB / HealBurst monk in team.

Often it is more benefitial to let a hero die then waste effort on healing him too. (big hex + condition stacks for instance)

I don't think you fully grasped what Lanier was trying to say HB with healing seed will have a much better effect other wise what's the point of bringing it along...... other then to have a SoLs effect but a weaker 1 also the statement where a healing burst a WoH monk and HB monk would pretty much be flat out dead more or less more times the the UA is a false statement

All 4 monk elites are great for survivability you just need to make a bar that synergizes well with each elite on the other hand I do like the Idea of putting SB on the smite monk it reminds me of the old CoF hero way with a warrior and 2 bonders..

Gabs88 · Apr 26, 2012, 10:53 AM // 10:53

If he's talking Healer's Boon and not Healing Burst, the only increased effect you get with HB over UA is the Half Cast time. Basically trading the ress from UA with the cast time from Healer's Boon along with a tiny bit more energy (which is not recuired, try it). Other then that the skills are more or less identical

bhavv · Apr 26, 2012, 11:49 AM // 11:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gabs88

and as a sidenote, the bars are packed with flaws and questionable choices. (Spear of light, channeling, blood of the master on a minion bomber, entire para bar)

I did miss that the thread was primarily about incorporating spell breaker, but if thats really the most important thing you can simply put it in there isntead of RoJ. I dont think is too important as prot spirit or shelter will do enough in most cases to allow you to tank HM spell damage, plus the 45s recharge really kills SB for PVE use.

Every bar in the game is questionable in some ways, including the ones in your OP, e.g. Why spellbreaker? Why healing seed? You would be far better served as a front line melee with having prot spirit + spirit bond cast on you instead of those.

Spear of light isnt really important, but it does add extra damage to your primary called target and brings it down faster.

Channeling is very good for hero monks, it gives them loads of energy in PVE, particularly in areas with large numbers of mobs, which is just about everywhere in PVE. Dont forget that it has an area range, it has made my monks comparable to N/Rts or E/Mos for sustained healing in long battles.

I'll give you that blood of the master and death nova is questionable, but my reason for it is that I like minions staying alive as long as possible, and when they do die from taking too much, death nova is still very useful.

The para bar is very useful - Anthem of Envy buffs damage for sprits and every physical attack on high health enemies, that includes your melee attacks as well. The remaining spells help a lot for sustaining your party in any battle. The elite slot is open for any utility elite, defensive anthem is very nice, or expel hexes, empathic removal, or for a copy of UA for use with a mimicry Healing Burst monk. UA buffs the heal on healing bursts primary and AoE DF based heal, essentially around 240 points direct heal, and 70 points of area range heal every 4 seconds, and again with channelling, the healing burst monk is able to keep on spamming healing burst and the rest of its bar without a problem with UA.

If you have any problems with splinter weapon not being applied on you, then you could manually cast it on yourself, but I've found that hero AI wont struggle with maintaining splinter weapon on two physicals.

They are simply strong alternative suggestions that you could try out, the backline you posted isnt exactly the only single possibility, and questionably far from the most ideal choice for a melee player.

Gabs88 · Apr 26, 2012, 02:00 PM // 14:00

Again, if you want to discuss your own bars feel free to make your own thread. Those bars are in no way viable alternatives to the bars posted in the OP regardless of how good you think they are. Because they are simply not suited to the same kind of playstyle.

And if you want to make a case for your crapagon, it is extremely easy to test that. Go to master of damage with SoS+SoGM ritualists, lock them on to target for 180 seconds then test for 180 seconds with the crapagon. The difference between the two numbers more or less represents the contribution of your crapagon. Then you can make your own thread and talk about how fantastic it is.

Daddy · Apr 26, 2012, 02:38 PM // 14:38

Lol crapagon... I occasionally run around with a BiPagon. Use your command shouts (i.e. FB, SYG), BiP only needs an 8 in attribute, put the rest into leadership. It is not too bad. Keeps me from bringing those para shouts on another toon, and even tho it sacs health, its higher armor and health keep it from getting targeted first.

loopysnoopy · Apr 26, 2012, 02:40 PM // 14:40

@GABS why all the hostility you should know by now guild wars guru is a forum filled with opinions just like yours; spell breaker isn't that great I did a dry test in bogroots which is caster's with that exact bar and tbh I would prefer the 3 prots that's on my WoH hybrid to Spell Breaker. As SB is way to clunky to be using on the off chance for a large ball Which brings PS,Spirit Bond, and SoA which negates the damage nicely and I can still pull 2-3 groups with out dying.

If you differ from this nut up and show us it in action and not against the master of damage like you seem to like using a lot as it doesn't prove JACK!

Gabs88 · Apr 26, 2012, 02:54 PM // 14:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by loopysnoopy

*snip*

Not all builds can be tested vs Master of Damage. Healing monks, interrupt based mesmers or smiters centered around smite hex / condition or similar obviously won't.

Paragons on the other hand do test well in those circumstances. It's damage is primarily reliant on straight out attacks, adrenaline gain and the damage it adds to spirit attacks. And sometimes hitting a target above 50%, other times below 50% is also quite realistic.

So lets cut the silliness.

loopysnoopy · Apr 26, 2012, 03:01 PM // 15:01

Simple solution then isn't they prove it and not at master of damage..... until that's done SB wont get a look in as the recharge is awful it can negate maybe 1 good group pull then you having to hang around for the next big pull pre cast PS,SoA,Spirit bond and your set until that's done your not proving anything so we forum lurkers are not gunna take you seriously at all

Also to note when I 1st read the post I did think its a troll getting up to hijinx

so lets cut the silliness then

<---- Your words I believe

Gabs88 · Apr 26, 2012, 03:10 PM // 15:10

Haha

Well I don't care much if you or bhavv don't take me seriously. I'm quite happy to be ignored by any person who thinks paragons or orders is good builds in general PVE.

<------ Door is that way.

Wenspire · Apr 26, 2012, 04:05 PM // 16:05

[QUOTE=Gabs88;5682214]If he's talking Healer's Boon and not Healing Burst, the only increased effect you get with HB over UA is the Half Cast time. Basically trading the ress from UA with the cast time from Healer's Boon along with a tiny bit more energy (which is not recuired, try it). Other then that the skills are more or less identical[/QUOTE

Don't forget the extra 25% EN regen from not having an upkkeep enchant.]